Curse

Kaleban · Feb 22, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malganis

One can have FoW armor without going into the Underworld because the armor crafter is in the FoW, and you can buy the needed ectos from other players or the Rare Material Trader.

I know that, my tongue in cheek question above was to show the hypocritical nature of complaining about what amounts to a trade in one instance, but not having an issue with it in another.

Getting FoW armor by trading for mats or gathering it all yourself is exactly the same as trading hammers for xp or gathering all the xp yourself.

Quote:

And why are certain quest rewards like Hammers and Prismatic Gelatinous Material able to be turned in by anyone, but other rewards like the Spectral Crystal and the Exquisite Surmia Carving are only able to be turned in by the person who did the quest? Sounds like a bug or an unintended feature to me.

Or that ANet is just experimenting with different quest design? Making all quests the same would be quite boring no? Its the same argument that Sir Cusfreak uses ad infinitum, that there is only one way and that is his way. And that the rest of us are amoral heathens consorting with demonic forces.

Why not require each player, who wants to get his armor infused kill an Eidolon? Why is it, no matter how many people are in the group, there is ALWAYS enough Spectral Essence to go around, even though there is only one? /sarcasm

Artinnia · Feb 22, 2011, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malganis

And why are certain quest rewards like Hammers and Prismatic Gelatinous Material able to be turned in by anyone, but other rewards like the Spectral Crystal and the Exquisite Surmia Carving are only able to be turned in by the person who did the quest? Sounds like a bug or an unintended feature to me.

The quests for the Spectral Crystal (Crystal Method) and the Exquisite Surmia Carving (Temple of the Damned) both have the requirement of killing the boss at the end (Eldritch Ettin and Murakai respectively) in the quest.

The quests for the Gelatinous Material (Watch It Jiggle) and the Hammers (Kathandrax's Crusher) simply have 'Retrieve x Item' in the quest log. Which is why you can take the quest and turn it in immediately if you have the Hammer in your inventory.

The easiest thing to do would to be to add the requirement to kill the boss at the end of Kathandrax and the Ooze Pit before you can claim the reward. Either way, I don't really pay it much mind. I have my survivor for the HoM, and if the changes occur I'll be killing worms outside Boreal to get it on my Rit for 30 titles. I don't really care how others get their titles as long as I can feel proud about how I got mine.

EDIT: A few spelling errors fixed.

Sir Cusfreak · Feb 23, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

The people who think that its like any other trade seem to be overlooking some very basic concepts about the meaning and usage of the word "Experience." Where's that handy-dandy dictionary people were throwing around earlier? Anyway, in my ever-so-humble opinion, experience isn't like materials, or consumables, or weapons, or other items intended for trading. And quest rewards are for the players who completed their respective quests. Its not exactly rocket surgery. We don't complete a quest on one character and collect the reward on another anywhere else in the game, we don't build up the XP from our last 50 kills and sell it in town when we get done, because experience is one of those things that is only for the character that earned it, and items and loot are not. Some features of the game are for trading, and I'm pretty sure experience isn't intended to be one of those features. Some things are inherently achievement-based, some aren't, and I for one will never believe that this trade is just like any other.
I've stated my case, and been told that some agree and some don't, but the only people who matter are the powers that be, and all arguments aside I really do hope they will consider these things if they decide to make further changes to the title requirements and include some changes to the quests/reward items as well.

ensoriki · Feb 23, 2011, 04:55 AM // 04:55

lol hammers and prismatic are whatever are we really crying over this?
Money rules the world kids, GW no different, Wisdom, drinking, sugar these titles are all money titles. If someone wnats to pay for their survivor what's it matter. Another way to get a crappy title.

Kaleban · Feb 23, 2011, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

The people who think that its like any other trade seem to be overlooking some very basic concepts about the meaning and usage of the word "Experience." Where's that handy-dandy dictionary people were throwing around earlier?

Experience, or "XP" in almost every usage of the word in regards to videogames, denotes the player characters "learning something" and then applying it. Sort of like a warrior learning how to fence with a sword, he won't learn and apply until he's actually fought and killed with it.

It is not meant to be the esoteric idea of character building, as that's something that would have to be role-played and is sorely lacking in most MMOs.

So no, no one is overlooking any basic concepts, you're just once again trying to find something that isn't there. What experience is in this game is painfully obvious to most.

Quote:

Anyway, in my ever-so-humble opinion, experience isn't like materials, or consumables, or weapons, or other items intended for trading. And quest rewards are for the players who completed their respective quests. Its not exactly rocket surgery. We don't complete a quest on one character and collect the reward on another anywhere else in the game, we don't build up the XP from our last 50 kills and sell it in town when we get done, because experience is one of those things that is only for the character that earned it, and items and loot are not. Some features of the game are for trading, and I'm pretty sure experience isn't intended to be one of those features. Some things are inherently achievement-based, some aren't, and I for one will never believe that this trade is just like any other.

Once a character reaches level 20, he ceases to gain any more raw power and simply relies on the accumulation of skills. Experience over that mark still accrues, and gives skill points.

Now what oh what to do with 700+ extra skill points? Why, turn them into consumables! And sell them for profit! Literally, you're trading experience to others to make their gaming easier.

You may never believe it, but the fact of the matter is, Kath Hammer trading IS just like any other trade, the only difference is your holier-than-thou attitude.

Quote:

I've stated my case, and been told that some agree and some don't, but the only people who matter are the powers that be, and all arguments aside I really do hope they will consider these things if they decide to make further changes to the title requirements and include some changes to the quests/reward items as well.

I also hope they consider what has been said, and throw your ideas out as being too limiting and regimented.

You STILL haven't answered how someone who's never gotten a Glob of Ectoplasm drop is able to acquire Obsidian armor. FoW armor is every bit as much of a "prestige item" as the Survivor title, and whether you want to admit it or not, the stark reality of the situation is that people can forego repetitive farming in favor of trading, services or otherwise.

The same principle applies to Kilroy and Kath Hammers. Just because you want everyone to ignore the obvious, and bury their heads in the sand won't make it so.

Dzjudz · Feb 23, 2011, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You STILL haven't answered how someone who's never gotten a Glob of Ectoplasm drop is able to acquire Obsidian armor.

Well... you can get all the ectos you need for obby armor dropped, from Banshees in FoW or from certain foes in ToPK.

However, you are also overlooking one source: the rare material trader.

There is no such trader as an XP trader except for an experience boosting scroll trader.

I somewhat agree that XP shouldn't be tradable in the form it currently is, Kath Hammers for example. I don't have any problem with using scrolls and boxing or snow wurms though, because then at least you are actually gaining the XP yourself.

chessyang · Feb 23, 2011, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

...Money rules the world kids....

Ditto!

Real life or a virutal setting. nothing new under the sun.

Kaleban · Feb 23, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Well... you can get all the ectos you need for obby armor dropped, from Banshees in FoW or from certain foes in ToPK.

However, you are also overlooking one source: the rare material trader.

There is no such trader as an XP trader except for an experience boosting scroll trader.

I somewhat agree that XP shouldn't be tradable in the form it currently is, Kath Hammers for example. I don't have any problem with using scrolls and boxing or snow wurms though, because then at least you are actually gaining the XP yourself.

/facepalm

I KNOW that you can get ectos from other sources than playing in the Underworld, that's the point I'm making to Sir Cusfreak is that one can acquire something (Obby armor) without having to play in the designated area designed for acquisition!

I thought that was obvious.

Whether you or Sir wants to admit it, players trade experience all the time, one form being consets, which directly contributes to acquisition of XP faster.

XP scrolls also increase the rate over "normal" and according to Sir Cusfreak's logic should also be a bannable offence because its not "playing as intended."

And as to "gaining the xp yourself" I've made the point repeatedly which seems to be ignored that a player buying Kath Hammers had to get the money from somewhere, most likely playing the game which solves the main contention. Its safer to trade Hammers of course, but so is Kilroy, wurm farming, etc.

There is literally no difference objectively in the methods used to gain XP, only the subjective value or importance placed on such methods by the player that determines the value of the title in the first place, which is a personal accomplishment and offers no in-game value or advantage.

Seriously, its like talking to a brick wall.

Dzjudz · Feb 23, 2011, 02:05 PM // 14:05

/facepalm x2?

I just said that I agree that you can buy obby armor, but the difference is that you can actually buy stuff like that from rare material trader while there is no such trader for XP. The only way is Kath Hammers for example, which practice I said I somewhat disagree with.

And "playing the game" to buy Kath Hammers is exactly why they shouldn't be tradable: you are not playing (earning them) on the survivor character, defeating the whole point.

Kaleban · Feb 23, 2011, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

/facepalm x2?

I just said that I agree that you can buy obby armor, but the difference is that you can actually buy stuff like that from rare material trader while there is no such trader for XP. The only way is Kath Hammers for example, which practice I said I somewhat disagree with.

And "playing the game" to buy Kath Hammers is exactly why they shouldn't be tradable: you are not playing (earning them) on the survivor character, defeating the whole point.

/facepalm x4?

You're missing the point a bit.

And there IS a trader for XP, called the Rare Scroll Trader. You're paying gold to directly increase the XP gain. It may not be as blatant as Kath Hammers, but its there.

Not to mention that Kath Hammers COST quite a bit more. Its a tradeoff you see, the less risk for the title, the more cash you pay.

Just like many of the consumables titles, it would take considerable time to farm the various items yourself, so people buy them from others, getting the title sooner than intended.

And what is REALLY the difference between Kath Hammers, Kilroy+scrolls and wurm+scrolls? Time.

As to the "point" being defeated, well isn't that the case with many of the titles, such as Kurz/Luxon supposedly being a title earned through faction combat able to be farmed through repetitive and faster Vanquish speedclears?

The "point" is that titles are only worth what the player thinks they are, and in the end has no effect on gameplay as the titles themselves (except PvE ranks) offer no gameplay benefits and are not tradeable.

Even if EVERYONE got Survivor tomorrow, there wouldn't be any deleterious effects on the game, since most view the title as easy to acquire anyways with little prestige if any, and IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.

/bangs head against brick wall

Dzjudz · Feb 23, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You're missing the point a bit.

And there IS a trader for XP, called the Rare Scroll Trader. You're paying gold to directly increase the XP gain. It may not be as blatant as Kath Hammers, but its there.

XP gained by that character. That is where I draw the line. You don't. Fine. But you can at least acknowledge that.

Kaleban · Feb 23, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

XP gained by that character. That is where I draw the line. You don't. Fine. But you can at least acknowledge that.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

But aside from the technical arguments related to the morality or honor of Kath Hammers (or any other quick route to Survivor), can it REALLY be argued that the Survivor title is that important in the first place?

My long diatribes notwithstanding of course lol.

I mean, we've all been arguing back and forth about whether its fair, right, morally justified, et al for Kath Hammers and/or quick routes to Survivor. My main contention though is that even if ANet bestowed Survivor on everyone TODAY, the game would not change, people would be happy with their +1 title for HoM, and the game would go on with barely a hiccup of "oh gee, that's nice."

Damian Manson · Feb 23, 2011, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

/facepalm x4?

/bangs head against brick wall

Read your post's and repeat above till it knocks sense into what you think your saying.

The difference between kath hammers/ooze thingy and doing things with scrolls is with kath hammers you do nothing to gain that experiance pretty much where doing kilroy or wurms you actually have to kill things your self to gain the experiance the scrolls only make the process that little less painfull.

Why anet have let it slip for so long i don't know maybe they do see it as a way of gaining the title, unlikely but possible and yes i know it states in the quest that you only ned to obtain the item but it should really mean you need to obtain the item on the char your turning the quest in with ie they need to do the dungeon themself to get the hammer.

Edit: Yes i know your original intent was survivor gives no meaningfull benefit to anyone. Something else popped into my head old fast faction farm was similar to giving "free experiance and that got fixed and was not as bad as the kath hammers are now and yeah there were other reasons the fff got fixed but that was one of the reasons.

Kaleban · Feb 23, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damian Manson

Read your post's and repeat above till it knocks sense into what you think your saying.

How can a character that does nothing afford Kath Hammers?

/brick wall

chessyang · Feb 23, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

.... does nothing

um guildmates can give them to you

wait for it.....

Free

It proably never happnes but it could.

Sir Cusfreak · Feb 23, 2011, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaleban
My main contention though is that even if ANet bestowed Survivor on everyone TODAY, the game would not change

Thats one opinion. There are others. One matters about as much the next. I hope the people who's opinions DO matter (the powers that be) will make the right decisions.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaleban
Your opinions are stupid

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Cusfreak
No, YOUR opinions are stupid

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaleban
You state opinion like its fact

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Cusfreak
No, YOU state opinion like its fact

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaleban
You use terrible analogies

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Cusfreak
So do you

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaleban
Youre like talking to a wall

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Cusfreak
Guess what?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaleban
Only MY opinion matters. I said it, so it must be true, and anyone who disagrees is a moron.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Cusfreak
No, only MY opinion matters. *I* said it so it must be true, and you're all morons. Oh, and Yo Momma.

We're really getting nowhere here. I think you're a moronic ass, you think I'm a moronic ass, I think I have a basis for being correct, so do you, whatever.
It moved beyond 'discussion'. I state an opinion, you state an opinion of my opinion along with your opinion of the topic, and I fall into the response and feed the troll. My bad. Let's stop now. Neither of us will ever get through to the other.

So...Can I join your guild?

chessyang · Feb 23, 2011, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Cusfreak

I state an opinion, you state an opinion of my opinion along with your opinion of the topic, and I fall into the response and feed the troll. My bad. Let's stop now. Neither of us will ever get through to the other.

plus it's going to happen. we seen the /deaths exp etc... at the last update

so save your hammers / ooze and sell them fast to make a buck (or platinum) before it get's patched

Kaleban · Feb 23, 2011, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by chessyang

um guildmates can give them to you

wait for it.....

Free

It proably never happnes but it could.

And how did those guildmates acquire them?

Apparently, none of you are familiar with First Cause.

Kath Hammers don't spawn out of nothing, for free. It requires a player to beat a dungeon.

Therefore the game is being played, and a reward is issued. How that reward is used is up to the player.

I thought this was all very obvious, but apparently not.

@ Sir Cusfreak - I don't think you're a moronic ass, which by the way is not very nice. I simply think you're unwilling to see the other side. I get that there is a moral vacuum in gaming, MMOs in particular. People want their shinies (items or titles) NOW, and are willing to pay.

Is that a fault of human nature? Or game design that emphasizes repetition and grind? Its probably a mixture of both.

But WHILE the issue exists (bad humans and limited game design) we might as well have as many options as possible.

And given that the game is nearly six years old, for all but the few new bloods that trickle in the game is very much repetition, so ANY changes and shake ups (Mesmer/Dervish update, Guild Wars Beyond for example) are quite welcome I would think.

chessyang · Feb 23, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Therefore the game is being played, and a reward is issued. How that reward is used is up to the player.

I thought this was all very obvious, but apparently not.

yes sir there for noobs like me will spam WTS Kath Exp hammer 5k | buy my exp

Hope the FB is tommrrow!

Damian Manson · Feb 23, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And how did those guildmates acquire them?

Apparently, none of you are familiar with First Cause.

Kath Hammers don't spawn out of nothing, for free. It requires a player to beat a dungeon.

Therefore the game is being played, and a reward is issued. How that reward is used is up to the player.

I thought this was all very obvious, but apparently not.

The whole point in the matter is the game IS NOT being played by the survivor char to gain that experiance as intended for the survivor title.

In every other way of gaining survivor the survivor char has to be there/take part/do something to gain the experiance from quests and or killing foes where as with the hammers/ooze all they need is to have enough hammers and be run to the dungeon to collect the experiance that they did not earn on that char and saying they earned the money to buy the hammers will not count because survivor for all intents and purposes was never meant to be a title that you could out right buy like sweets or party or the many other titles you can buy. It just happens that 2 quests offered the possibility to buy the title out right unfortunately.